Dragon ([info]ryuutchi) wrote,
@ 2008-05-16 10:35:00
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Current mood: aggravated
Entry tags:feminism, rant, suckiness, supernatural

I suppose I should...
Right, Supernatural. Last episode of the season.


Yeah, you saw that right.

See, the thing is I want to like the show. The boys are attractive. As a general rule the plots are interesting. But...

I keep asking myself "how many more skanky race and gender issues does this show need to have before I just give up?"

I'm still not sure, but when, at then end of a dramatic episode, where the main character ends up in hell with a meathook through his shoulder, I feel vindicated because he was a complete douchebag hypocrite to a woman who was going to hell (and he made rape jokes at her), and then engaged in slutshaming another woman in the finale?

Yeah.

It was a good episode. Very dramatic. Not too many narm moments. Too much Bobby, but honestly, for the most part any Bobby is too much for me. (Is it too much to hope that his disappearance means he's dead? Plz?) For the most part structured well. Some genuine creepy moments.

OTOH, mythology failure begins to get on my nerves after a while. If you want us to believe you do the research at least pretend to use some of it. Someone early in the season mentioned that Lilith is a "psychosexual demon" Yeah, would you stop it with the little kid thing? I know little kids are creepy, but Lilith is a full-grown demon, y'all.

And this is all ignoring the total failure of the main characters to grow or change or have any sort of emotional continuity in any meaningful way. (Yes, I remember Mystery Spot. Where is that coldness from Mystery Spot in the finale? Rottenfish and Bree over on JF pointed out too that Bela wouldn't have made the guys look half so dumb if they'd learned from their first experience with her. And also, why don't the boys ever seem to think about characters they've left behind or touched-- like Cassie or Ellen or Jo or Missouri.) They're supremely self-centered, but I'm supposed to like them. And... I kind of don't right now. Quite the opposite, in fact. The end of the season made me gleeful.

And I think that may mean I really need to take a break. From the show, from fandom. All of it.

Well, except from [info]cunnilingusfic. They're doing a "Eat Bela Out Challenge". I'm okay with that. Also, I will break this intended fast if someone writes Sam/Lilith.

ETA: ... well, that was a little more bitter than I was expecting.

ETA2: I should note this mostly means I'm taking almost all of the comms off my flist. I'm probably not gonna defriend anyone unless this drives me into a depressive funk.


(33 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]tiferet
2008-05-16 07:01 pm UTC (link)
If you feel that way, there's no reason you shouldn't give up on it. I've done that with shows that pushed all my buttons. I would rather have you stop watching the show than have you laugh in my living room when I'm genuinely upset about something, you know? I love you dearly, but we need to be able to disagree about this show enough to watch it together without you laughing when I want to cry and vice versa.

I agree with you about Lilith. Not about Bela or Dean. That's okay with me, that we don't agree, but I feel like it isn't for you. That's why I asked you to not argue with me about it last night in the middle of the ep (particularly since I was still into it). Because I know how you feel, and you know how I feel. And neither one of us is going to change the other's mind.

Maybe next year we'll watch House, or Heroes, together. I don't know yet. If they put House and Heroes on the same night we'll definitely end up using TiVo to do both. I'm not sure what I want to do right now.

We weren't mad at you--I know you felt like you needed to apologise when you left, but you didn't, we'll live--but it's okay for you to feel this way, I just don't want to feel like you're laughing at me because I am fucking upset that he's dead or for you to be uncomfortable because I think calling Bela a bitch is like calling that thing we're all staring at a TV set.

Edited at 2008-05-16 07:06 pm UTC

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[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-16 07:17 pm UTC (link)
It isn't okay for me because I feel like you DON'T respect what I'm watching. When I say "this is bothering me" you all but call me oversensitive. When I find an episode really fun and engaging, you call it cheesy. If you're allowed to be bothered when there's something creepy on-screen, why can't I can't I be bothered when Dean says something that makes my skin crawl? I mean, the eyeball ice cream scoop doesn't creep ME out, but I respect your right to be creeped out by it. Dean essentially threatening to rape a woman who was abused as a child make ME creeped out. And also makes me think that the guy doing the threatening is a gigantic douchebag. But when I say it, I get shot down.

And to pick up from last night, yes. Calling a woman a "slut" is misogynist, whether or not he calls all women that. Because it's a misogynist insult. People don't use it for men. They use it for women-- especially women who are "above their place" to cut them down to size. That's the way Dean was using it, and it made me flinch when he said it. Don't try and make me feel uncomfortable for be kind of upset about it.

At any rate. I wasn't laughing at you at the end. There's was just something amazingly cheesy about the meathook. And the way he was screaming. It was just... over the top, IMO. And I have no proble with someone calling Bela a bitch. It's the "don't flatter yourself"s and the "you should have asked for help"s (how about NO, Dean, you raging hypocrite?). The "bitch"es just made me roll my eyes and think that Dean can't deal with being one-upped-- especially not by a woman. (Of course, if he'd learned from the first two times they'd met... But, right. No emotional or mental continuity.)

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[info]tiferet
2008-05-16 07:57 pm UTC (link)
I don't know what to say. I disagree with you. I am never going to agree with you. I still like you. I don't think you're "oversensitive", but I don't agree with you that those things mean what you think they mean in that context and I don't see the point of continuing to discuss this matter because it just makes both of us angrier.

Are you seriously comparing this to the ice cream scoop issue? I thought it was creepy, you didn't. Of course you don't criticise me for thinking that it's creepy. You don't think it's a moral issue. You accept that I'm watching from a different place and move on. You can't seem to do that with this.

I don't think you're a terrible person because you like cheesy shit. But I do sometimes get the feeling you think there's something wrong with me because I don't agree with you about Dean, because you keep pushing me about it instead of just accepting that I don't agree with you. I mean, I really don't sit around thinking, "how can I get her to stop liking cheesy shit, how can I improve her tastes?"

I don't want you to feel uncomfortable for being upset about things. I just want you to stop demanding that I feel the same way. Upon occasion I have agreed with you that certain wording was unfortunate, but I still like the character.

Also? The conversations would go easier if we didn't have to have them at full length when I'm actually trying to watch the show. Do you realise you actually tried to read someone else's spoilery LJ entry out loud to us before the show was even over and NOT during a commercial break?

I feel like I can't sit down and just enjoy SPN any more because I don't have to wait to get the political analysis from my flist, I'm going to get it before the show is even over. I like to actually be immersed in the world of a show while I'm watching it. I don't want to be yanked out to deal with the big issues until it's actually over. If I'm willing to make fun of the show or talk about it while it's still on (like during facers or that next to last episode) that's a sign that I'm not actually into it, either because I don't think it's good or because I haven't been allowed to get into it.

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[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-16 08:15 pm UTC (link)
My frustration comes from the fact that you think I'm trying to change you morally. I had issues with Bela's episode because I thought the writers, and by extension the characters were being really skanky. I wasn't trying to change your opinion, I was talking about what I was seeing. You're free to disagree, but you shut down all conversation.

Like the "reading a spoilery LJ entry" Which a) wasn't spoilery, b) wasn't an entry (all I read to you was the sum of the comment-- it was all of two sentences) and c) was a JOKE. But, I suppose the humor in the joke comes from the assumption that most people would see "slut" as a pretty sexist thing to say regardless of context. I wasn't trying to make a political statement, I was trying to make a joke.

I don't make statements out of thin air. I make then when something happens in the show that strikes me. Some people yelp when a creepy child walks in the room. I say "oh hey!" It's a response. I do my best to suppress it most of the time-- hell, I haven't said much of anything during the shows for the past month or so. I've tried not to because I know you don't like it. That I occasionally make a comment is not me attempting to change your mind. It's me making note of something on a TV show, because sometimes I point stuff out aloud.

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[info]tiferet
2008-05-16 08:32 pm UTC (link)
I hate to say this but what we have here is a matter of perspective. You think you don't say much because you say less than what you would say at home. I did not grow up in a household where people talk over each other all the time. I also have (as I've told you before) an auditory learning issue, which means that when you talk during the actual dialoguey parts of the show, at length (more than a yelp, entire sentences, maybe even three at once) I literally cannot hear what the actors are saying. So to me, it seems like you never shut up, especially when you also call your girlfriend and wander back and forth into the room where we're watching the show and do not lower your voice when you come into the room where the show is on. (Well, you usually do do that afterward, when we're watching something else, but if I haven't seen that something else before, it's still annoying.)

I can't invite Seanan to come over while you're there because she would completely and totally kill you. Despite the fact that Seanan is anti-Wincest and a Dean/Jo shipper, I actually can watch SPN with her more easily than with you because all I have to do to not piss her off is to not make too many comments about the subtext.

And yes, it's more annoying when it's about sexism. Not because I think you're oversensitive. But because you use more words and longer sentences and I miss more of the show. I get why you think it's gross when Dean says certain things. You don't have to explain it.

Like the "reading a spoilery LJ entry" Which a) wasn't spoilery, b) wasn't an entry (all I read to you was the sum of the comment-- it was all of two sentences) and c) was a JOKE.

Has it really escaped your attention over the last two years that I don't actually like jokes when I'm into something that is kind of heavy?

But, I suppose the humor in the joke comes from the assumption that most people would see "slut" as a pretty sexist thing to say regardless of context.

I'm kind of offended by the notion that you think I think this is an okay word to say just because I don't have a problem with someone using it in the context of demons are about to kill me, I will go to hell and be tortured eternally by them, they are currently giving me hallucinations, and you want me to co-operate with one.

In general, yes, "slut" is a pretty sexist thing to say regardless of context. But when I say "regardless of context," I mean "regardless of most contexts that are actually likely to happen in the real world".

I am willing to bet that the things which would come out of my mouth in the same situation that Dean was in would be equally shocking. They might be a different kind of shocking, but they would almost without doubt be ugly.

Edited at 2008-05-16 08:39 pm UTC

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[info]moirarogers
2008-05-16 09:40 pm UTC (link)
For the record, though...I hate it when people call the show out on its "skanky gender issues" because uhh...skank? Really? That's the word choice we want to use for that particular issue?

I am not a fan of limiting vocabulary generally speaking, but doing that sort of undercuts the point. How do we not look stupid complaining that Dean called someone a "slut" when we just called something skanky to indicate that it is totally bad?

Food for thought. :p I only call my closest friends skanks.

-Bree

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[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-16 10:01 pm UTC (link)
You have a point. Especially since Dean uses the term, IIRC, about Ruby at one point. Thanks. :/

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[info]moirarogers
2008-05-16 10:59 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. It's just one of those things. I don't get riled up about use of the word in general, but it does undermine the arguments about how Dean seems to use words that indicate sexual promiscuity as synonyms for evil.

-Bree

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[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-16 11:04 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure where I picked it up, and I'm pretty sure I didn't use it until recently. Weirdly, this is actually the only context I use it in, too. I should probably just reconsign it to the trashbin of vocabulary.

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[info]moirarogers
2008-05-16 08:54 pm UTC (link)
Rottenfish and Bree over on JF pointed out too that Bela wouldn't have made the guys look half so dumb if they'd learned from their first experience with her.

They don't learn at all is my problem. Ever. From anything. The show expects me to believe that they are SUPER DEDUCTIVE AND AWESOME half the time, and so dumb I'm amazed they can get their shoes on the rest. But it's not even consistent. In one show Dean's brilliant about people. In the next he's an idiot. I just...bah. The characterization is so inconsistent that I just want to cry.

And the fact that no women can survive on the show no matter how old/unthreatening/whatever they are makes my face sad. And Kripke needs to deal with his Mommy issues and get over the Madonna/Whore thing because holy shit it takes a lot to get me riled up. (Seriously, I get flamed by feminists all the time, which is a whole different fandom rant. D:) But man this show is sort of brick to the face with the whole, "HAI VIRGINS YAY SLUTS BOOOOOOOOOO."

Bah.

Though I disagree about Bobby. I mean, as a character, he is poorly drawn. He is walking, talking exposition. BUT...the actor somehow makes that amusing, and I give him mad props because I can't imagine how hard it must be to play a character who is the male embodiment of an Info Dump. (Ruby is the female embodiment. Together...they dump info.)

-Bree

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Bitch bitch bitch
[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-16 09:07 pm UTC (link)
When everyone was talking about how Bela made Dean look "dumb" I kept thinking "what are you talking about? Isn't half the point of the character that he's a bit of a doof?" Because he has a store of knowledge, but beyond that he just doesn't seem to learn or grow. He doesn't think to remember what approaches work on a job. Sam's a little better, but he fluctuates from "total nerd" to "idiot little brother" to "miniDean".

Possibly I'm just bitter about Bobby coming back all season when Ellen (who is of the same status and has the same sort connection) didn't come back at all. It also felt like they were relying on Bobby WAY too much. I mean, they were constantly talking about "I called Bobby and he said..." So the character was a presence even when he wasn't onscreen. It felt like Bobby was diluting the 'brotherly love' more than anyone else.

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Re: Bitch bitch bitch
[info]moirarogers
2008-05-16 09:36 pm UTC (link)
Well, I've never been a part of the fandom so I'm sure I miss a lot of it. :p The only info about Supernatural fandom I really have is what gets linked on JF and what [info]calicokat tells me when she's over here doing fandom-y stuff on my WiFi. ;)

I watched the show because the entertainment factor was greater than the WTF factor for me. But I have to like the main characters for that to happen, and I've been getting a little bored with both of them lately because they just don't grow. They don't change, nothing makes them learn. Even stuff like Sam's hardassness comes and goes.

If an episode from Season 3 could take place in Season 1 and the characters would do the same stuff...well, that's just not a good sign. To me. But I am not a fan of Monster/Criminal/MedicalMystery of the Week shows that don't have something else going on under the surface.

-Bree

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Re: Bitch bitch bitch
[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-16 11:01 pm UTC (link)
I'm more into the fandom than I was expecting to get. I normally hang out around the edges, but I went to Wincon on a whim and made a bunch of friends.

I tend to really enjoy MotW shows, but if the characters don't change consistently, the monsters and recurring characters have to be at least interesting enough for me to ignore it. When they keep killing the recurring characters and the monsters of the week are either boring or make no sense AND the characters are inconsistent? It's a recipe for disaster.

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Re: Bitch bitch bitch
(Anonymous)
2008-05-17 12:45 pm UTC (link)
Ellen (who is of the same status and has the same sort connection)

I love Ellen like crazy (and I love Sam Ferris even more if possible) and I wish she would have been able to come back this season. However, from everything we've heard from the writers and from Sam Ferris herself, it was more because of Dawn Ostroff who wanted the two new *young* females instead of Ellen that she didn't appear. Then they tried to get her back too but the schedules just weren't working (and I'm sure there were other problems as well including Sam feeling hurt by being replaced by Ruby and Bela). I think also the way they've written these characters, I disagree slightly on her having the same status and connection. The boys definitely began to care about her and trust her in Season 2 but based on their backstories, they've known Bobby since they were little kids ("Uncle" Bobby) so it makes sense that he'd be the one they're more likely to call instead of someone they didn't even know existed until last year. Though I would have been pretty happy if Ellen was at least mentioned a time or two.

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Re: Bitch bitch bitch
[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-18 09:05 am UTC (link)
I keep hearing fans blame Ostroff for shit, but so far no one's been able to point me to any place where anyone has said "she told us to do this". First Bela and Ruby were her fault, then just Bela, now Ellen's disappearance? I know Sam Ferris mentioned being dropped for younger, prettier girls as a possibility on her blog, but that was her supposition, not actual, reliable information.

Also, that still means Kripke's a spineless weasel, since he could have pointed to any number of shows on the CW featuring young, pretty characters that also feature older characters (Smallville, for instance) if he'd felt like it was actually an issue.

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Re: Bitch bitch bitch
[info]lady_ganesh
2008-05-18 02:51 pm UTC (link)
And note that Ma Kent left of her own volition, and was a pretty significant part of the show up 'til then.

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Re: Bitch bitch bitch
(Anonymous)
2008-05-21 01:35 am UTC (link)
Yes, and like I said to ryuutchi, Mrs. Kent was significantly on the show long before Dawn came into leadership and with the establishment of Smallville in both length of time on air and ratings, I think they were able to at least get away with a little more than Supernatural would. Plus again, they haven't exactly been adding other significant older females on Smallville since Dawn either.

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Re: Bitch bitch bitch
(Anonymous)
2008-05-21 01:32 am UTC (link)
Well Sam Ferris has told fans many times at the conventions she's gone to that it was the network and specifically Dawn that wanted her out and I'd never gotten the impression that she was just guessing when she talked to us. In fact, she had repeatedly mentioned talking about it with Kripke. I don't have the link offhand but there was an interview on either E!Online or the TV guide (online version) with Kripke where he admitted that they'd only planned on Ruby for the female recurring character but then Dawn requested it be two females (and given their threat of not being re-newed, I don't get the impression that it was so much of a request as a "do this or you're not coming back"). So they took Bela who was originally meant to be a one-off and had her put on Ruby's level of appearances. That's the "she told us to do this" when it comes to her being "at fault" for Bela's role anyway and like I said, I never got the idea that Sam was lying to us when saying that it was the network's doing.

As for Kripke, I do think he was being spineless in listening to Dawn. However, I think it was also a different circumstance because Smallville had been on longer with these older characters and had higher ratings so I think they could get away with more. Plus that show hasn't exactly been adding many older female actresses either since Dawn's become in charge.

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Re: Bitch bitch bitch
[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-21 01:38 am UTC (link)
I didn't say she was lying. I said she was speculating.

Also, link links or GTFO.

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[info]amchara
2008-05-16 09:22 pm UTC (link)
I think while I have many of the same issues as you do with the show, the degree to which might be a little different. (Hence why I'm not going to comment about the episode itself here in your lj) But that's okay.

And dude, sometimes taking a break from the fandom, the show, the characters, is a good thing. That's kind of how I approached Heroes this year. If it makes you uncomfortable, take a break- go enjoy another show (if you need suggestions, I have a couple to recommend :D). It's seriously not worth the hassle if you're not liking it.

Or, if you want to rant about it- trying hooking up with fans who feel similarly, although I wouldn't recommend that for too long, as it can make you bitter and begin to hate everything about the show you once liked.

Anyway, I hope you won't disappear entirely- I'm about to resurrect [info]spn_summerlove for the summer, and I'm hoping you'll take part in it again. :D

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[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-16 09:58 pm UTC (link)
♥ I actually almost put down Summerlove as my other exception to the fandom break, but I thought it would sound better if I pretended that I wouldn't do absolutely anything for Ellen Bela Jo you know.

I do think I need a bit of a break. I need to rethink my perceptions. I have a pretty high tolerance for stupidity generally, so I just need some time to retcon it all into place. D:

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[info]coniraya
2008-05-16 09:32 pm UTC (link)
Seriously I tried to watch the show this season after all the skanky issues chased me away about 7 episodes into the first season. I tried to watch this season because I heard about Bela & Ruby. Eventually I found myself skipping any episodes that didn't involve those two because Dean's constant sexism just kept pissing me the fuck off! Then that whole episode where Bela goes to hell and they have the gall to judge her and laugh at her going to hell when they have no clue what the whole story is. I mean, how FUCKING dare they?!? The rape jokes...I blacked out with rage a little bit at that point. And the way Dean keeps calling Ruby a "bitch" is another thing that worked my fucking nerves, it got to the point where I wanted him to die, slowly and with some screaming. I liked Dark!Sam willing to do anything to save his brother, even kill an innocent but I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT BECAUSE HIS BROTHER IS AN ASS!

Anyway all this is to say that I completely agree with this post. I like that Dean is in hell, I hope Bela's already a demon and she tortures him over and over to make him lose his humanity. I hope hellhounds gnaw on his genitals...

...my bitterness totally rose in response to your own and it felt good to get that out.

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[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-17 06:25 am UTC (link)
Yeah. Normally it takes a lot for me to start disliking a character (especially one I write), and I have a talent for conveniently ignoring douchebaggery of any sort (sexist and otherwise) when I WANT to like things. But the plots, the recurring characters, and the MotW haven't done anything to distract me this season.

God. Why do they have to be such assholes? I want Bela and Ruby to tag-team bitchslap Dean while he's still hanging from those hooks.

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[info]lady_ganesh
2008-05-17 03:45 am UTC (link)
I'm incredibly glad it's the end of the season. I was glad that they were more or less called on the 'go it alone' bullshit, and that their brilliant 'go it alone' plans ended up with Dean in hell. But that doesn't redeem all the skeevy bits of this season, especially Bela's end (though sticking Dean in Hell makes me hope, just a little, that she'll be back in some capacity next season, even though I suspect this is beautiful denial at its loveliest).

I actually like Bobby. He reminds me of Rednecks I Have Loved. But the total inability to have any recurring character who is not white and male or DOOMED is extremely bothersome.

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[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-17 09:55 am UTC (link)
I wish I could give you hope about Bela, but Kripke said she wasn't coming back. Because he's a spineless bastard who can't write shit. I redeem it in my brain by imagining Bela and Ruby visit Dean like Ghosts of Christmas Past and slap him into the dark ages while he's stuck on that conveniently placed meathook.

Also by possibly rewriting the the last two episodes in my head and imagining Sam goes off and finds Jo while he figures his shit out. And she smacks him for tying her up. (I work out a lot of my aggression by imagining them getting beaten painfully, yes.)

I'm not sure why Bobby annoys me so much. There's a lot of layers to it-- my bitterness that HE got five episodes this season and Ellen got none, the way fandom treats Jo/Ruby/Bela/the Roadhouse as getting in the way of brotherly love or making the guys stupid and/or reliant while Bobby gets a free pass to make the boys reliant and show up as much as he wants. The fact that SamnDean have no problem letting him turn into a father figure, after knowing him all of a year. The character himself I sort of find bland-- I was calling him the Bobby ex Machina earlier this season and last because he almost always has a solution. I can see the redeeming characteristics, like in Dream a Little Dream, I just can't bring myself to care.

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[info]lady_ganesh
2008-05-17 08:19 pm UTC (link)
I like both those ideas.

Oh, yeah, I have characters like that too (hi, Kate from NCIS!). I think part of the reason Bobby gets a free pass from the fans is his attitude (though his penis is no doubt a big part too). It's hard to hate a guy who has an "I Read John/Bobby" t-shirt.

The fact that SamnDean have no problem letting him turn into a father figure, after knowing him all of a year.

Seriously? (Here's not watching the first season biting me in the ass.) I thought Bobby game Sam the pendant. Was that a retcon or was I wrong?

Bobby reminds me of a lot of guys I know, who would move the world for you but would be grumpy and bitchy as hell why he did it, because you guys are idiots, and pains in the asses too.

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[info]pervyficgirl
2008-05-18 12:04 am UTC (link)
I don't have anything exceptionally brilliant to say to add, so I'll simply say that I agree. For me, Supernatural ends here, with a fitting end for Dean (considering the way he's been portrayed of late.)

It's too bad, really, because I loved this show once. But the continual "White Men are awesome; everyone else isn't important" theme angers me too much to continue with it.

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[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-18 09:09 am UTC (link)
Nice to know I'm not alone. D:

I may still write some girl-centric SPN fic for [info]spn_summerlove, but this show would have to bring back Jo, Ellen, Henricksen, Bela, and Missouri-- and then Dean would have to actually do some goddamn learning-- before it got even remotely back into my good graces. Which isn't going to happen, so...

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[info]xphoenixrising
2008-05-18 04:42 am UTC (link)
OTOH, mythology failure begins to get on my nerves after a while. If you want us to believe you do the research at least pretend to use some of it. Someone early in the season mentioned that Lilith is a "psychosexual demon" Yeah, would you stop it with the little kid thing? I know little kids are creepy, but Lilith is a full-grown demon, y'all.

I just wanted to jump in and say Lilith possessing children was more of a war tactic than anything else.

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[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-18 09:21 am UTC (link)
Back up your claims, cite your sources. The fact that her "R&R" was pretending to be a child and acting like a child says to me that they don't understand the entire point of the Lilith myth (or that they do and chose simply to discard it almost whole-- the only moment with Lilith that was at all like Lilith was when she kissed Sam. And even that didn't last.)

Having her make mommy read her bedtime stories subverted the baby-strangling, wet dreams-causing, mother-queen, psychosexual demon that the Lilith of myth is. I noted back during Jus in Bello that I was hoping that the little-girl thing was just a strategy, but at all times this season when we see her, Lilith is treated and acts like a child. Even when kissing Sam, it's prefaced with the extraordinarily little-girl-ish "I like this body. It's all grown-up and pretty." An adult demon who considered herself mentally and physically an adult wouldn't have responded that way.

Maybe you're reading it differently and see that as a front-- and maybe it is. But they've given NO hints that she's more adult-- and, more importantly, exponentially more sexual than she acts.

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[info]lady_ganesh
2008-05-18 02:53 pm UTC (link)
I don't think Lilith is meant to be the Lilith. I think it's a name they thought sounded cool. At least I fucking hope so. If she was the Lilith she could have eaten Sammy for lunch.

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[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-18 05:49 pm UTC (link)
That's part of the problem. If they're gonna use the name, they need to either make it clear it's a different demon using the name, or they need to not completely ignore all the mythology.

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[info]lady_ganesh
2008-05-18 06:22 pm UTC (link)
Oh, no disagreement there.

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