Dragon ([info]ryuutchi) wrote,
@ 2008-05-03 13:40:00
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Current mood: bored
Entry tags:fandom, metameta, television

A little less than a month ago [info]hannahrorlove posted an essay about slash goggles and why people should "just watch the show".

Now, I disagree. She knows I disagree, which is why I never bothered to write up a response essay, despite the fact that the concept of reading a text from the "wrong" point of view, and the existence that "what a show objectively is" goes against all my deconstructionist philosophies.

But, thankfully, I don't have to! Dr Merlin has posted a lovely essay that addresses most of my concerns about the idea of watching televison through filters-- albeit, in a more entertaining and less pretentious manner than I've been thinking about it. Please read her essay, Your Friends Are Not Watching the Same Show As You Are, And That's Okay.



Personally? Right now, I'm watching "The Donna Noble and Martha Jones Make Fun of Ten Show", "No, Seriously, Did You Learn Your Gender Studies in the Boys' Lockeroom? Show", "The Takezo Kensei/Adam Munroe/Richard Sanders/Jesus This Man Has Too Many Names Stalks Hiro Show", and "The Meat and Sarcasm Guy Hour".


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[info]black_regalia
2008-05-03 10:18 pm UTC (link)
Actually I think she has a point -- she's not saying don't watch the show for the slash, she's just saying 'Don't come to a show with expectations', which I think is fair.

For example, I originally hated House and Buffy the TV show because I came to House expecting it to be high drama, and I came to Buffy expecting it to be like the movie. When neither one meassured up, I didn't watch them. Later, I sat down and accepted House as a soap opera with a big budget and enjoyed it, and watched Buffy as its own show, not as a continuation of the (fantastically awesome) movie.

I think if someone said to me "I don't want to watch ____ because there's no one to slash" I think I'd stare at them for a moment and walk away. And that's as an avid slash reader/writer.

I don't think she was saying it's wrong to slash or to watch a show from the slash perspective -- just that going INTO a show for the first time, don't pre-judge it. People who say they won't try something because they have a pre-conceived notion drive me crazy.

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[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-04 12:12 am UTC (link)
That's fair, but from the conversations that came out of it, I saw a lot of "I don't understand watching the show that way"-- not just "starting the show that way" but watching it in general. So, once I've watched House without hoping for pairings, at what point am I allowed to start wearing the slash-goggles? At what point can I start watching it for Chase or Wilson or Foreman instead of House (which isn't a point Hannah made, it was a point someone else made in the comments-- that House "isn't about" Chase or Foreman or Wilson, and thus fans shouldn't bitch about them not appearing.)

At what point is someone allowed to watch the show for (and bitch about) "something the show isn't about"?

If that makes any sense. :/

I mean, hell, when I watched Buffy, I ended up tuning in for the intermittent episodes of the "Oz is a Sexy Nerd Show" with its fill-in series "Willow Could Probably Beat Everyone Else Up Show".

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[info]black_regalia
2008-05-15 05:57 am UTC (link)
I think 'allowed' is a bad term. It implies that there are some kind of TV police, telling you how you can, or how you can't, watch a show.

You're allowed to watch a show in any way you wish. However, I think that others are allowed to be offended by certain notions -- for me, I'm offended by the notion of not trying a show, or giving a show a chance because it doesn't fill certain pre-made check boxes.

If you watch the show a few episodes, and it just doesn't do it for you, I think that's totally fair. But when I read the original poster's er, post, I read her as saying 'It's frustrating when people won't give things a chance because of superficial reasons', which I do agree with.

If she was attempting to say 'You can't ever watch a show and enjoy slash in it that isn't canon' then no, I don't agree with her.

And someone is allowed to watch and bitch about a show at any point they want -- but when I hear "I don't think ____ is good because it didn't have enough slash", I tend to tune out. It just seems like a very shallow reason to reject something. I can understand saying "I'm not in the mood for something serious tonight -- let's go with light comedy", but it's hard for me to understand "I won't watch this show because not enough guys make out".

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[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-15 07:25 pm UTC (link)
What I got was both "I'm offended if people are constantly looking AND "I'm offended if people get annoyed when it's not." (At least the latter is what I get from the whole "I hate slash goggles"-- It' the "slash goggles" bit that makes me think she means people shouldn't be looking for slash. It should "naturally occur" somehow, as though subtext doesn't involve people looking for it at least on some level.)

But RE: the former...
If I watch a cop show and stop watching because there aren't enough shoot-outs or people getting read their rights, that wouldn't annoy people. Why should people get annoyed if I watch the show and decide it's not to my liking because the pairing possibilities aren't interesting to me?

It's not like the whole "watch for things you want to see" is uncommon regardless of whether you're in fandom-- a group of the guys at my local comic shop were talking about Iron Man yesterday, and one of them commented "You know, I realized why I didn't really like it. There wasn't enough gay." This guy isn't in fandom, and isn't into slash-- but he likes superheros because, well, they can get pretty damn gay. So he watched the movie and decided he didn't like it because what he came in expecting to see wasn't there. Another person said he wouldn't watch the Speed Racer movie because the movie's run-time was too long, but someone else liked it because the car crashes were amazing. Choosing what you watch and enjoy based on an arbitrary standard is totally common.

I don't understand judging someone for their arbitrary standard-- why is genre, tone (and number of explosions) okay, but not types of character interaction?

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[info]black_regalia
2008-05-22 03:18 pm UTC (link)
I don't understand judging someone for their arbitrary standard-- why is genre, tone (and number of explosions) okay, but not types of character interaction?

Well, but you're making the assumption that I think it is okay to disregard something based on number of explosions, or based on run time.

For me, personally, I'll try anything. Multiple times, even. Food, TV, movies, whatever. My only thing is that sweet potatoes make me throw up >> So they're my one "No" item. But I've found that my tastes change as I age, so I'll try things more than once to see if my feelings have changed over time. I'll watch just about anything, and give it a fair chance, so I find it frustrating when others don't.

I think, to a certain extent, the problem is the feeling of double standards. For instance, you find it acceptable when someone doesn't want to see something because of its run time, so you don't understand why someone else can't accept when you don't want to see something because of the pairings. For me, I'll try anything that anyone pitches it at me, so I feel frustrated when I pitch something at someone and they say they won't watch it because of some artibrary reason.

The end result is that we feel like a double standard is being placed -- you'd allow me to reject a show for any reason, so long as I accept the same. But I would watch any show you suggested, and expect the same. We're both actually keeping a fair standard(behaving as we expect others to behave), it's just that they're conflicting standards.

And, just to make sure I'm distancing myself from this, I ABSOLUTELY disagree with the OP if she was saying that slash has to "naturally occur". Or that you're not allowed to see slash in a show.

I guess it's just that since I'll try anything, I get really frustrated when I pitch something to someone and they won't even give it a chance. I don't even necessarily judge them or anything, as many of my friends do this, but it's a frustrating experience, and I could identify with the OP being frustrated if that was her point.

Sorry for the lull in replies XD I love this discussion, but I keep reading your responses JUST before I have to leave the house, and it ends up falling on my 'to do' list for ages.

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[info]lady_ganesh
2008-05-04 03:39 pm UTC (link)
But "don't come to a show with expectations" is...crazy. Of course you come to a show with expectations. I don't just turn on the tv and watch whatever's on because hey, it's tv, and I shouldn't have expectations. "Don't let your expectations keep you from experiencing something different and maybe awesome" is something different, IMO.

I also think people are trained to go into a show with het expectations-- it's what our culture tells us to do-- so I don't see anything particularly 'wrong' about going against that training.

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[info]ryuutchi
2008-05-05 02:34 am UTC (link)
Pretty much. "het goggles" are just the default, so it's a surprise when someone is open about automatically looking for a homosexual couple. There are plenty of people who don't care to watch show that don't have het ships-- except that if there is a girl and a boy, there's automatically going to be the assumption of a het ship, so it's not usually a problem.

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[info]black_regalia
2008-05-15 05:46 am UTC (link)
But if you can see why people would object to "don't go in with het expectations" you must conversely see why people would object to "don't go in with slash expectations." Majority/minority things aside, you're still valuing one form of sexuality over another, and even worse, basing quality on an arbitrary variable.

If I'm going window shopping, or, hell, a friend suggest a store to me, and I approach the store thinking "Man, I'm going to buy a lot of apples here" and it's a stereo store, it's not the store's fault that I can't buy apples there. And making a qualitative judgment on the store(Man, what a crap store. They don't even sell any apples!) would just make me look a fool. Just because they're not selling my particular need of the moment, or selling my brand of item, doesn't make it a bad store.

This all comes from a gay/bi woman who merrily writes oodles of slash. But I can't imagine going into a show NEEDING slash there to make it good. I understand having a craving, sure -- some evenings I wanna sit down and watch Bruce Willis blow up crap, and Dirty Dancing, my friends, is just not going to cover it -- but I like both Die Hard AND Dirty Dancing, they just fit different moods. Making a judgment on a piece that involves so many angles -- from writing, to directing, to acting, to effects -- based purely on who makes out with who seems very shallow.

You said 'wrong' in your post, but I don't think that anything a viewer takes away from entertainment is 'wrong'. Sure, I have an old couple who're friends of the family who think the Sixth Sense is a story about a father getting his son to overcome his shyness(???), and okay, I think I can safely say they're wrong, but if someone refuses to watch a show because there's no slash, I don't think they're 'wrong'. It's entertainment -- anyone can watch whatever they want to, for whatever reason they want to.

However, I'm still allowed to say that I wouldn't be interested in someone who rejected a show just because there wasn't enough gay, just as I wouldn't be interested in someone who rejected a show for not having enough straight. The minute they say that I hear "I didn't like Moby Dick because Ahab didn't make out with the whale".

Also, apologies on the slow -- I was really interested in this discussion and wanted to get back to it, but life ate me :)

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You were really just waiting so I could use this icon.
[info]lady_ganesh
2008-05-17 12:17 am UTC (link)
Damn those lives! Don't they realize we're supposed to be sharing our thoughts on yaoi?

I didn't use 'wrong' actually-- I said it's 'not wrong.' But anyway, to the meat!

But if you can see why people would object to "don't go in with het expectations" you must conversely see why people would object to "don't go in with slash expectations." Majority/minority things aside, you're still valuing one form of sexuality over another, and even worse, basing quality on an arbitrary variable.

I think it's a question of how and why you go in with slash expectations, too. That's never my primary objective when watching things, but I certainly went into Torchwood hoping to watch John Barrowman kiss boys, and I keep watching Bones for the UST between Bones and Booth. (I may be the wrong person to defend slash goggles, actually, now that I'm on a roll.)

if someone refuses to watch a show because there's no slash, I don't think they're 'wrong'. It's entertainment -- anyone can watch whatever they want to, for whatever reason they want to.

However, I'm still allowed to say that I wouldn't be interested in someone who rejected a show just because there wasn't enough gay, just as I wouldn't be interested in someone who rejected a show for not having enough straight. The minute they say that I hear "I didn't like Moby Dick because Ahab didn't make out with the whale".

Ahahah, that would be awesome. but what about Queequeg and Ishmael? OTP, baby.

Of course you have that right. Shit, all of us have the right to pick our friends and our shows, and I've stuck with crappy shows longer than I should for silly and shallow reasons (hello, Weiss Kreuz, why yes I am talking about you).



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